Wellbeing Report seminar series: He Ara Waiora – Applying an Indigenous Approach to Wellbeing

Caralee McLiesh (00:00:10):

[speaking in te reo Māori] Tēnā koutou katoa. Ngā mihi nui ki a Sacha te kaikōrero o te rā. Tēnā koe. Ngā mihi ki a koutou, kua hui mai nei i tēnei rā, e tautoko ana i te ako.

I would like to start us with the Treasury karakia, and others who know it, please do join in.

[speaking in te reo Māori] Ko te Tai Whakarunga. Ko te Tai Whakararo. Ko te Tai Tokerau. Ko te Tai Tonga. Ko te Tai Hauāuru. Ko te Tai Rāwhiti. Tēnei ko Te Tai Ōhanga. Hui e, Tāiki e!

So once again, Nau Mai Haere Mai, and welcome to everyone, it's great to see those online. Thank you so much for joining us for today's presentation, which is a part of the Treasury's wellbeing seminar series. Back in April, I was pleased to launch the first in this series of seminars, outlining a work programme that is going to culminate in the Wellbeing Report or Te Tai Waiora, that the Treasury will release at the end of this year. Te Tai Waiora is going to be a report on the state of wellbeing in Aotearoa, New Zealand, how that has changed, how wellbeing is distributed across our society, and also on the sustainability of wellbeing. And in my presentation back in April, I highlighted that Te Tai Waiora will be underpinned by two wellbeing frameworks, the Living Standards Framework, and also He Ara Waiora, which is a framework that helps the Treasury to understand waiora, often translated as a Māori perspective on wellbeing.

Caralee McLiesh (00:01:50):

Developing and applying these frameworks is a strategic priority for the Treasury, we aim to increasingly apply He Ara Waiora alongside the Living Standards Framework, as we gain insights from exploring wellbeing from different cultural perspectives and different knowledge systems. So given that priority, we are really privileged today to have Sacha McMeeking talk to us about He Ara Waiora, to support a wider understanding of the framework and also to support our learning in how to apply He Ara Waiora in a really meaningful and in an authentic way. So Sacha, again, welcome, also welcome to your little one, your pēpi, it's wonderful to have that intergenerational view in our conversation today about wellbeing from a te ao Māori perspective. Sacha has played a really key role in the development of He Ara Waiora right from the start of the process, working with a group of rangatira, initially through the Tax Working Group process, back in 2017. And Sacha is now a member of that rangatira group, called Ngā Pūkenga, and the Treasury walks alongside Ngā Pūkenga, they walk alongside us to develop and to apply He Ara Waiora.

Caralee McLiesh (00:03:11):

So the Treasury as a whole, are, and I personally am incredibly grateful to Sacha for her leadership in this mahi, and the important role that she's played in the development of He Ara Waiora. It's making a real difference in the Treasury's ability to better weave te ao Māori perspectives into our policy work, into our advice. I would say that we are still at the early stages in our application of He Ara Waiora, but we're investing in our understanding of how to do so. And we're really thankful for the wisdom, the guidance of Sacha and of other Ngā Pūkenga members in this work. So I was really keen to open this event today, so that I could acknowledge and thank Sacha for this kōrero.

Caralee McLiesh (00:03:55):

Unfortunately, I do need to leave just before the end of Sacha's presentation and can't stay for what I know is going to be a really stimulating and challenging discussion with you all. So I'm going to hand the floor over to Phil Evans, and Phil is one of our real leaders in Te Tai Ōhanga on He Ara Waiora. Phil's going to chair the rest of the session and facilitate the discussion.

[speaking in te reo Māori] Nā reira. Tēnā koutou katoa. E noho rā. Piki te kaha.

Phil, over to you.

Phil Evans (00:04:59):

[speaking in te reo Māori] Tēnā koe, te Kaihautū a Caralee. Nāu te takapau i hora mō ā tātou nei kōrero i tēnei wā. Oti rā, koutou rā kua huihui mai nei i te karanga o tō tātou nei kaupapa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. Ko Phil Evans tōku ingoa. He uri tēnei nō Taranaki maunga ko Ngāti Mutunga te iwi. Kia huri whakatetonga, ko Oraka te moana, ko Aparima te awa, ko Kai Tahu te iwi , nō reira, tēnā koutou.   

I'd like to welcome everyone today to the seminar, which as Caralee has mentioned, is part of a broader wellbeing programme that we've got going in a seminar series. And our aim here is to bring in external ideas as a source of challenge and intellectual stimulation as we work on these important kaupapa. So it's part of an opportunity to learn with interested people across Aotearoa, and to broaden the discussion. We've got a range of seminars going for the rest of 2022 and early '23, with the participation of international and experts from Aotearoa, New Zealand.

So I'd like to [speaking in te reo Māori] tautoko ngā mihi kua mihia e Caralee ki tō tatou nei kaikōrero i tēnei wā ki a Sacha. Tēnā koe e te rangatira. Nāu mai, haramai ā-ipurangi ki roto i te haumaru o tō tatou nei whare kōrero, ko Ngā Mokopuna a Tāne, tēnā koe, me tō pēpi.  

This baby's been a part of a lot of our discussions with Sacha and has always had a very vocal contribution to make.

Phil Evans (00:06:13):

So Sacha is an Associate Professor at the University of Canterbury, and as Caralee has mentioned, a real intellectual leader and instrumental in synthesising some of the korero that's been gathered from thought leaders in te ao Māori about the He Ara Waiora framework. So she's explored mātauranga sourced approaches to articulating and measuring what matters since a 2010 Fulbright Harkness Fellowship, which produced a toolkit for Māori organisations to embed tradition based values into commercial and iwi decision making. And this body of works continued to evolve, exploring the conceptualization of wellbeing, mechanisms of social change to achieve better wellbeing and measurement systems. So Sacha's really traversed academic and practitioner roles at a senior leadership level. She has an MPhil from Cambridge University's Judge Business School, and an LLM Hons from the University of Canterbury.

Phil Evans (00:07:15):

So today Sacha is going to talk about the application of He Ara Waiora within a broader contextualization of its place in global wellbeing approaches, and specifically in relation to the Living Standards Framework. Her presentation recognises that applying the framework deeply will be challenging for government and other sectors, as it inverts many of the kind of Western assumptions that implicitly shape our understanding of what wellbeing is, whether we're aware of those or not. And so this is very relevant to my work as a Principal Policy Advisor in the Treasury, and the te ao Māori Policy and Strategy Team. And as Caralee mentioned, a big part of that is the application of He Ara Waiora, so I'm very excited for today's presentation, and I hope you all are too.

Phil Evans (00:08:04):

I'm going to hand to Sacha shortly to talk for about 45 minutes, and then the remainder, we'll have time for Q&A. I suggest this will work best if you pop your questions in the chat. If there's a particular question that appeals to you, that you'd like me to put to Sacha on behalf, I suggest to you might want to up vote that with a thumbs up and I'll try and go to the most up voted ones first. So yeah, let's go that way. And for the moment, I'll hand over to Sacha to give her korero.

[speaking in te reo Māori] Nā reira, nau mai e te rangatira, kei a koe te rākau kōrero.

Sacha McMeeking (00:08:42):

[speaking in te reo Māori] Tēnā koutou, e ngā maunga whakahī kua haramai nei, e pā ana te kaupapa whakahirahira ki a ngāi tātou. E rere ana ngā mihi matakuikui ki a koutou. Ki ō koutou maunga, ki ō koutou whenua, ki ō koutou tūpuna, ngā mihi. Ki ngā kaiwhakarite me ngā kaiwhakahaere o te kōrero nei, ka nui te mihi anō. Ko wai au? He uri nō Tahu Pōtiki, ko Kāti Huirapa, ko Kāti Hāteatea kā hapū. Ko Sacha McMeeking tōku ingoa. Ko Mātangileia tēnei.  

It's a real pleasure and an honour to be able to contribute to the seminar series. The work that the Treasury is doing in the area of wellbeing, I think is globally leading and inspiring. And I've been deeply honoured to have the roles that I have had during it, which at this time of Matariki, when it's an opportunity to acknowledge those who have passed, as well as look forward into the future. I want to particularly pay tribute to matua Manuka Henare, and matua Piri Sciascia, who were instrumental in the formulation of He Ara Waiora, whom we've lost since its inception, as well as to acknowledge all of the other [speaking in te reo Māori] pūkenga ō ngā motu who were the ones who generated all of the content, my role was to translate and synthesise. And all credit to the brilliance, to those pukenga, Whaea Naida, Matua Rikirangi Gage, Temuera Hall, and many others that if Mātangileia wasn't being quite so energetic with my notes, I might have a better chance of recollecting the full names.

Sacha McMeeking (00:10:46):

So I think the opportunity to talk to He Ara Waiora at this time, is powerful, as we come into a week where we're going to mark, for the first time, a public holiday that embodies matauranga Māori. And I think He Ara Waiora has a spirit that is very much aligned to marking Matariki as a nation, which is that He Ara Waiora has national and global resonance of reframing those things that we value. And in this presentation, would like to be able to talk to the relationship between He Ara Waiora and the living standards framework, with a real focus on being able to understand the points of alignment and difference between the two approaches, because He Ara Waiora is young, it embodies ancient knowledge, but it's young. So we are all learning how to apply it and how it can realise the aspirations we all have for it.

Sacha McMeeking (00:12:00):

And so this is an opportunity for us to learn together, as much as I hope I've got some contributions to make, these thoughts are very much emergent as I think we make new ways of being able to articulate and [inaudible 00:12:16] those things that matter most. Apologies for at times, not melodious contributions of Mātangi. So what I wanted to do with this presentation is move through three parts to each of the Living Standards and He Ara Waiora, first to locate each of them in their respective whakapapa. The second is to unpack some of the assumptions and understandings that tacitly underpin their foundations. And then the third, to look at some of their application, with the application in the context of He Ara Waiora being something that is evolving, and that luckily, we all get to contribute to.

Sacha McMeeking (00:13:10):

So starting with the Living Standards Framework, I think what the Living Standards Framework endeavours to do as a purpose in life is to answer how does the state measure and through the power of measurement, advance what matters. And I think that starting point is really important when we contrast it against what He Ara Waiora seeks to do in the world. And so for the Living Standards Framework, I think there's a really important whakapapa that connects the Living Standards Framework back into our human rights movement globally. When we look at what the Living Standards Framework does, it's trying to articulate the conditions in which human dignity can flourish. So the Living Standards Framework, with its articulation of the dimensions of wellbeing, is, I think, really describing the conditions in which human dignity flourishes. And the origin of that idea, we can trace it back through our various human rights instruments.

Sacha McMeeking (00:14:25):

If we go to the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, it was the first attempt to affirm that human dignity had multiple dimensions to it that needed to be safeguarded, that as we moved through time, got further specified and codified with the human rights conventions, civil and political rights, social, economic, and cultural rights and so forth. And then from there, I think we had a period where it took us time to appreciate that merely affirming and codifying the conditions for human dignity to flourish, was not enough to ensure their realisation, because then we can jump forward to various new approaches to supporting the conditions for human dignity to flourish. Things like the Sustainable Development Goals or their predecessor, the Millennium Development Goals, which, in my mind, aim to interpret those human rights standards and create a focal point for states and other entities, whether it's business or NGOs or the like, to converge on various implementation efforts that will enable those human rights standards to be realised in practice.

Sacha McMeeking (00:15:53):

And at about a parallel point in time, there was a greater focus on measurement frameworks. So using the power of measurement to accelerate and amplify the focus on the things that really matter as well. And so we can look to the OECD's better living approach, which very much informed our Living Standards Framework. And between those two things, I think the whakapapa of the Living Standards Framework shows that the emphasis has been on finding ways to create the conditions in which human dignity can flourish. And that point about the conditions is really important, that I'll come back to and underscore a few more times, because while the focus has been on conditions, there have also been through that, various different formulations about how we can categorise, name and describe the different dimensions of wellbeing, whether that's looking at the four capitals or now five, if you support cultural capital being included in that, and the other dimensions, which in these frameworks typically relate to facets that are observable, so dimensions of wellbeing, like health or physical safety or the like.

Sacha McMeeking (00:17:41):

And we'll also come back to that issue of dimensions, because I think in the global tradition, there's been lots of different taxonomies for how we could describe those dimensions, but there hasn't been a clear favourite chosen for how we could or should describe them, which becomes important for He Ara Waiora. And sitting underneath that whakapapa, is, I think, a range of tacit assumptions that inform the nature, operation, purpose of these types of frameworks. And we can go in lots of different directions for tracing those tacit assumptions, but one that I think is important and potentially under-recognised is the role of Maslow's hierarchy. So this screen shows a reinterpretation visually of Maslow's hierarchy, while keeping the same content.

Sacha McMeeking (00:18:54):

And for some of you, it'll have been a while since you've thought about Maslow. So I'll just bring him back to front of mind, where Maslow had that pyramid shape where he started with physical security, and then you moved through safety, which was a gateway into love and belonging and esteem and self-actualization. What he's framing in that way is the gateways of wellbeing. First you look after physical security, then next space is gaining safety, and then next space is the opportunity to gain wellbeing through love and belonging, through up into self-actualization. And I think that way of understanding movement towards wellbeing, I think is highly influential as an underpinning for the way in which Living Standards Framework and its various cousins around the world, have been framed. And particularly in the way it's got a sequential move from protecting the conditions, to supporting relationality between humans, then feelings and then purpose.

Sacha McMeeking (00:20:18):

And more specifically, I think if we look at our Living Standards Framework, primarily the measures and the indicators in that framework, like it's global cousins, are focused on articulating those first two layers in Maslow's hierarchy, with a little bit of reach into love and belonging, which mirrors our human rights standards largely. And so we've got these approaches to wellbeing and human dignity that focus on creating and enabling context, by looking after the conditions in which an individual might be able to realise feelings and purpose in life. And I think that broad approach, we treat it as almost inviolate, I think, because it accords with lots of the implicit principles about our constitutional order, about the line at which the state cannot or should not interfere in the private lives of citizens. And I think that's also important because when it comes to the way in which He Ara Waiora approaches wellbeing, that line between where the state can or cannot or should or should not go, is potentially different, which is where I want to go to now.

Sacha McMeeking (00:22:09):

So with He Ara Waiora, I think the key question that drove the discussions and the development of He Ara Waiora, was the question of how do we conceptualise wellbeing? And on the basis of that conceptualization, how might we encourage the state to do things differently, to realise those notions, that different notion of wellbeing? And I think that's a really important distinction from the living standards framework. So the living standards framework borrowed from various global approaches to describing the dimensions of wellbeing, but it didn't have the purpose of trying to create a coherent, fulsome conceptualization of wellbeing and what it could or should mean in our national context. And that's important for He Ara Waiora, because He Ara Waiora comes into approaching that question within its own whakapapa.

Sacha McMeeking (00:23:20):

So the He Ara Waiora as a kaupapa Māori model for wellbeing, steps into a journey in the development of kaupapa Māori models. The most famous kaupapa Māori model, which many of you'll be familiar with, is Te Whare Tapa Whā, from Tā Mason Durie, which I think is the leading light in a range of metaphorical models. So where metaphor was used to convey a Māori worldview, to help people understand Māori ways of conceiving of a particular thing, in that case, health. And then following on from the metaphorical models, we had a range of practise guides developed, and that images one from Te Whāriki and the education sector, where there was an attempt to translate in really practical how-to terms, how people who wanted to, could implement kaupapa Māori principles and practises in their day job.

Sacha McMeeking (00:24:27):

And then the third type of kaupapa Māori model that we see, are ones like the mauri model depicted on the screen, which attempt to use measurement, so that we use kaupapa Māori standards to measure whether something is good or bad, or which direction it happens to be travelling. And He Ara Waiora has the benefit of learning from all of those and approaching the question of how do we conceptualise wellbeing while trying to embody all of those dimensions? Can we use the power of metaphor, practise guidance for how to, and ultimately measurement to track progress, as well as incentivize it being prioritised. It learns from all of those and is arguably one of the first of its time in trying to be all of those things at once. And it definitely won't be the last and it will continue to evolve.

Sacha McMeeking (00:25:34):

And the way that it endeavours to step into that whakapapa of kaupapa Māori models, is it brings this image, which has a lot baked into it. And I don't have time today to talk to all of the dimensions of He Ara Waiora, but I do want to talk to how it fits together and then focus on one particular dimension of it. So what that graphic is trying to convey is first, that it's based on a takarangi pattern. So the takarangi pattern, where there's koru feeding into each other, is trying to communicate that all of the dimensions of wellbeing contained in He Ara Waiora, are interrelated. They feed each other and they are necessary as cumulative parts to achieve wellbeing. And then the, excuse me, the different coloured circles are about communicating different dimensions of wellbeing. So at the centre is wairua, about in order for there to be wellbeing, there has to be a connection back to source and wairuatanga.

Sacha McMeeking (00:26:56):

The second circle is te taiao, and what that is endeavouring to communicate is that when we approach wellbeing, it shouldn't be human centric. We should be able to recognise that the wellbeing of te taiao is a precursor to human wellbeing and independent, to some extent, of human wellbeing. And then the maroon circle is the ira tangata dimension. So the human dimension of wellbeing that has four distinct components to it, each of which is infused with he tangata he kāenga, meaning that there is a relationship between individual and collective, embedded with all of those spheres of human wellbeing. And from the discussions amongst Ngā Pūkenga, there were four spheres of human wellbeing identified: Mana Tuku Iho or identity, Mana Āheinga, about aspiration and capability, Mana Whanake, about prosperity and resources, and Mana Tauutuutu about belonging and responsibility within communities.

Sacha McMeeking (00:28:12):

And so those three dimensions, wairua, taiao, and ira tangata, and within He Ara Waiora, the ends, so they are the substantive manifestations of wellbeing. When there is connection to wairua, when there is wellbeing within te taiao, within the human dimension, when there is a strong, cohesive identity, plus when there is aspiration and capability to realise those things that are valued by individuals and communities, when there is prosperity and when there is a strong sense of belonging between humans, that's when wellbeing exists. So that's the substantive conceptualization of wellbeing, which is then surrounded in the blue circle, with a range of means values, so these are the process elements. And in this part, it's really important to emphasise that He Ara Waiora was made to guide the Crown, so there's a strong emphasis on how the Crown can conduct itself to contribute to wellbeing. And those are the principles of kotahitanga, tikanga, whanaungatanga, tiakitanga, and manaakitanga, that in order for wellbeing to exist, the Crown embodying those principles, is important and necessary.

Sacha McMeeking (00:29:54):

And the final outer circle, waiora, is there to reflect that it takes ends plus means to achieve wellbeing. So those substantive elements, plus those instrumental or means values to achieve wellbeing. And I am going to talk more to each of those dimensions with a couple of different visuals. So this one, I just want to communicate the cumulative nature of wellbeing as conceptualised within He Ara Waiora and that it's and all of the dimensions. Which I think is a really important distinction to the Living Standards Framework, because in the Living Standards Framework it's expected that there will be independence between the various dimensions of wellbeing and the interrelationship between them is not interrogated with, I think, the same level of depth that He Ara Waiora does. Conscious of time, I will move to the next conceptualization, which is this one, that if we just look at the ira tangata dimension for interest of time, and really because talking to wairuatanga and te taiao, is probably above my pay grade.

Sacha McMeeking (00:31:29):

I'm going to talk to just the ira tangata dimension to try and provide greater depth in terms of how the bits fit together, as well as be able to talk in more practical terms to how it might be applied. So this is, I think if we were going to take that same picture that I used to present Maslow's hierarchy, this is how that same kind of picture would be reframed with the dimensions or spheres of wellbeing within and ira tangata and He Ara Waiora. With the important point that because these are cumulative, it assumes that they all subsist simultaneously, whereas in Maslow's hierarchy or in the various frameworks that follow on from that, it's like a gateway from the physical and the practical, into elements of meaning and purpose. Within He Ara Waiora, as I understood the dialogue between Ngā Pūkenga, it was about all of the dimensions being present together. And importantly, they typically invert the hierarchy that Maslow has.

Sacha McMeeking (00:32:49):

So mana tauutuutu, about being known and being responsible within communities, is a sense of belonging as being necessary to wellbeing, that is centred in a way that it's not within other frameworks. Mana tuku iho about that being centred with the importance of having that coherent identity. Capabilities and aspirations, I think in the way the discussions happened, they were very similar to the nature of capabilities that Sen advocates for, with a real focus on the capabilities that are valued by the particular communities or individuals. And prosperity and resources being there in that they almost have an instrumental relationship with the other spheres of wellbeing.

Sacha McMeeking (00:34:09):

And across all of those discussions about the dimensions of wellbeing within He Ara Waiora, I think all of those dimensions in the discussion, there was a consistent emphasis about the importance of matching choice and ability. So the ability to choose identity, as well as having the real world opportunity to experience that identity or capability, or the other spheres of wellbeing. And in this sense, this also has alignment with Sen’s work about the concept of a substantive freedom. So it has alignment, but it also has points of distinction because I think while He Ara Waiora is not intended to be solely applied to things Māori, it's intended to be a mātauranga Māori framework that can be applied to consider the wellbeing of any community, to the extent that it's relevant and resonant.

Sacha McMeeking (00:35:27):

There are particular dynamics that we have to engage with in New Zealand about. There are many things that colonisation does, and one of them is that it constrains the limitlessness of aspirations with those who were affected by colonisation. So when we talk in this context about having the ability to choose, to craft an identity in a particular way, or choose to value and therefore pursue particular capabilities, we can't presume that aspiration is as bold or as limitless as it could be, because of the context that we inherit as part of a historical legacy. And the other dimension is about opportunity, the real world context in which these choices are being made, which takes into account both the structural influences on freedom of choice, as well as the very practical aspects of opportunity.

Sacha McMeeking (00:36:45):

If I want to choose, although I don't actually have the capability to do it, but if I wanted to choose to live a life solely using te reo Māori, the real world context for me to be able to go and buy a pair of shoes in te reo Māori is constrained. Even if the structural restrictions on that are removed in practise, the context doesn't enable all of that choice. So I think as we look at all of these dimensions of wellbeing (oh honey, did that bunny bite you), of identity and belonging and capabilities and prosperity, it's about asking questions about how free and actual is that choice within the human structural and practical context.

Sacha McMeeking (00:37:58):

And then the second part are those means values, kotahitanga, tikanga, whanaungatanga, tiakitanga, and manaakitanga, and that it's important to also understand the ... I might just, in the interest of time, slip to here. So when we're thinking about wellbeing, what these dimensions of He Ara Waiora ask us to do, I think, is to think about the scope of policy, the role of power and process and purpose in how we are shaping policy. And that's because kotahitanga, in the way that it was framed by the participants, was about alignment and unity within the Crown. So in creating policy or approaches to enhance wellbeing, there needed to be unity across government. If there's going to be unity across government, then it's quite possible that the scope of policy might need to change.

Sacha McMeeking (00:39:09):

Tikanga was framed as being about the right decision maker and the right process. So fundamentally that's about the location and form and structures around power and policy. Whanaungatanga was discussed by participants in the sense of being able to foster layered relationships between Crown and communities. So, it moves us away from thinking about that consultation to engagement spectrum, and more into thinking about nurturing ongoing relationships and the layering of them in the development of sound and desirable solutions. Tiakitanga, about taking time horizons, longer term time horizons than we are used to. And Manaakitanga was talked about in a way that is deeper than how we commonly refer to it or translate it as hospitality. So manaakitanga, if you break it down another way, can mean to fill with mana, so that the purpose of policy arguably should be to fill people with mana, but to do so requires a really deep knowledge of the circumstances of those communities that are sought to be served, and that the mechanisms or the delivery for that policy, also matters.

Sacha McMeeking (00:40:51):

To demonstrate his point, Rikirangi, when he was talking about manaakitanga, gave the example of, if you want a pen and I throw a pen across the room to you, it's not manaakitanga, so you might have got the outcome, you got the pen, but I threw it at you, so it's not manaakitanga. So that the mechanisms for delivery also matter. So what does that mean if we're trying to apply He Ara Waiora? Well, I think it means that we're looking beyond concepts of just measurement and trying to broaden our lens away from GDP. I think what He Ara Waiora is asking us to do, is to think more broadly about how we achieve or how we foster or encourage wellbeing. And this is a generic picture of an intervention logic, which I think it is just to try and make it clear that if we're looking at the Living Standards Framework, it's primary point of influence is down the end on the right, about helping us be able to see the outcomes and seeing those outcomes does genuinely broaden our view.

Sacha McMeeking (00:42:16):

And just for clarity, I think the Living Standards Framework is a really valuable contribution to our national landscape, and I'm very grateful that it's there and for all of the work that's gone into it. So this isn't a criticism, this is trying to show the points of distinction, because I think He Ara Waiora, if we're to apply it deeply, aims to influence the way that we think about what we do in a policy sense at more points than the Living Standards Framework. And so that the first point where those conceptual dimensions of wellbeing really encourage us to think deeply, in terms of the activities, what it is that we choose to do, as well as the next one, about who we choose to engage, and then how we think about what success looks like in terms of those results.

Sacha McMeeking (00:43:20):

And for that first one about what are the activities that we might choose to do, I think He Ara Waiora invites us to ask ourselves a series of questions when we're thinking about what we could, should do in a particular context. And it asks us to ask questions about both choice and ability, about the level of aspiration to inform the freedom of choice, as well as the landscape of structural and practical opportunity. So for identity, how are people enabled to choose or craft their identity? How are people enabled to determine what it is that they value, in terms of capabilities and therefore how they're pursued? How people are enabled to create prosperity and to create bonds of belonging and reciprocity? And then their counterparts in this sphere of opportunity.

Sacha McMeeking (00:44:28):

And I think these types of questions are ones that come out of a matauranga Māori approach to articulating wellbeing, but in doing so, I think they've also got connections to broader global movements. Mariana, oh my gosh, I've forgotten her name, Mariana Mazzucato's work on grand challenges, for example. So I think this type of conceptualization of wellbeing sits alongside those global movements, which are asking for broader ways of unifying action to create different types of solutions. And that's really the power of He Ara Waiora, in my opinion, is that it asks us to question the assumptions that have kept us into reasonably bounded solution making, and to explore broader ways of contributing to if they're dimensions of wellbeing than their normative or inherent goods.

Sacha McMeeking (00:45:42):

So a couple of examples, I think, so this morning was in a conversation about Māori economic development. So how could Māori economic development, for example, use He Ara Waiora to guide what could or should be done? And at first blush it's like, well, no, just surely He Ara Waiora must be too broad to be useful in that way, but I don't think it is, I just think it reorients how we might approach the puzzle. So for example, what's the role of economic development in creating choices and opportunities for people to craft their identities in a way that they might value. And so that example of can I buy shoes using Te Reo Rangatira for potentially economic development, is the way to enable that. Or equally, if we're to take that approach and to think of He Ara Waiora as convening and aligning efforts on paramount dimensions of wellbeing.

Sacha McMeeking (00:46:59):

It means that things like the transport sector can ask the question about what's the transport sector's contribution or potential contribution to healthcare. And that could be really significant if the frame of mind is different from a more typical singular dimension approach to wellbeing. Because the transport system could solve lots of our rural access to healthcare challenges if it was so oriented. And I think that's the invitation that He Ara Waiora makes for all of us, to approach things with a broader view about the interrelationship between ends and means and possibly to take a more philosophical approach to the way we think about wellbeing, rather than the measurement focused and therefore quite mechanical approach to wellbeing that's being driven through alternative frameworks. And again, I don't want any misinterpretation that mechanical is bad. I think mechanical is really important to get us to a place where we can also have conversations about the conceptualization of those things that matter most or that we value most in understanding wellbeing.

Sacha McMeeking (00:48:49):

In concluding points, so that there is some time for discussion, I think that inviting us to take that conceptual approach to how we understand wellbeing, is where I think it's really important to emphasise that He Ara Waiora is not just meant to be about things Māori, that if we can open up the conversation about how we conceptualise wellbeing, the assumptions that we bring to it, and the scope of thinking, whether it's just measuring or whether it's framing our approach to solution building, I think it has got national relevance and a national contribution that connects us with a uniquely indigenous approach to that thinking about convening to solve the grandest challenges of our time.

Sacha McMeeking (00:49:54):

And we'll finish with the quote from Einstein that variously gets misappropriated about, we can't hope to solve a problem in the same consciousness that created it. And I think that's the potential gift of He Ara Waiora, of it brings an additional worldview, an additional consciousness that can help us approach the complex challenges of our time, in a different way. And at that point, my waiata tautoko is about to contribute. So I thank you again for sticking through, I thank you again for being patient while Mātangi had a meltdown, and look forward to any conversation that we're able to have.

Phil Evans (00:50:50):

Kia ora, Sacha. I found that really interesting and obviously highly relevant to my own work, but the chat's full of some great comments as well. There's a lot of mihi to you and the baby, there's also some really interesting questions. And I think the top up voted one is from Betsan, [speaking in te reo Māori] Nā reira, tēnei te mihi ki a koe Betsan me tō pātai, who's asking about the place of Te Tiriti in these frameworks. So you might be able to answer that from a He Ara Waiora perspective.

Sacha McMeeking (00:51:31):

Well, I think that's a really important question and I think there's a distinction between the Treaty as a mechanism to create change, as opposed to the substance of the Treaty. And so, for me, He Ara Waiora gives effect to some of the spirit of the Treaty in a really meaningful way. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't use the Treaty to argue for the legitimacy of its existence. So we're really used to hearing that you must abide by the principles of the Treaty, in whatever language, He Ara Waiora leap frogs that stage to say, if the Crown was able to meaningfully adopt He Ara Waiora, then it would make a meaningful step towards genuinely being able to implement the Treaty, if that makes sense.

Sacha McMeeking (00:52:44):

And I think potentially in our national journey, that's increasingly where I think there's value in focusing, that the Treaty will always be relevant, it is the founding document of our nation and it will always be speaking. And increasingly what I think the job of our generation is, is to develop tools that can enable it to be substantively implemented. And that's what I think He Ara Waiora is, it's one tool to help with the substantive implementation of the treaty.

Phil Evans (00:53:26):

Ka pai. There's a question here from Paula. Tēnā koe, Paula. She's directed at me, asking what the interest in this approach is from other countries with indigenous populations. Well, I could talk between governments, but perhaps Sacha, you might be able to comment on what korero interaction there might have been with other indigenous peoples around the world.

Sacha McMeeking (00:53:52):

Not directly at this time, but I think that's partially because He Ara Waiora has only become more visible quite recently. But I think in lots of predecessor frameworks, there's been a higher degree of kind of cross fertilisation, and I think that will continue. But Phil will have, I think, more helpful things to say.

Phil Evans (00:54:20):

Yeah, I can say that we've had korero with other governments, including Australia and Canada, who are very interested in this approach, and also the Scandinavian Treasuries, who are all kind of trying to apply a wellbeing approach, were quite taken with He Ara Waiora. So Preston has asked a great question here, Tēnā koe, Preston. He's asking one which often comes up for me, and so I'd be really interested in your perspective, Sacha, what role, if any do trade-offs play in He Ara Waiora? He says, inverting dimensions makes any trade-offs just as important, it seems to me, very relevant in resource restricted environment.

Sacha McMeeking (00:55:09):

Yeah. And I think that's going to be a fascinating thing that we work through as we apply it more fulsomely. And potentially I'm too optimistic, but I think that if we're starting from a point where the parameters are about inter relationships, rather than about independent spheres, I think that means we come up with different types of solutions and those different types of solutions have less hard butting up points for trade-offs, but that's my optimistic attempt at a crystal ball, which might prove to be wrong. And the only honest answer is we don't know yet how trade-offs will work.

Phil Evans (00:56:21):

Ka pai. Now to all of those of you who are asking who's the Treasury point of contact and where to find more resources, I'll probably fess up and say it's me. And as we conclude, I'll drop a link to our website in here, so you can see what resources we already have available. Sacha, there's a few questions I could group up here around what are the next steps? I mean, that's partly question for us and Ngā Pūkenga, but what are your views, how would you like to see He Ara Waiora develop from here?

Sacha McMeeking (00:56:58):

I think that's a great question, and there are a number of threads to the work programme, in terms of, I think there's elements of deeper articulation of the dimensions of wellbeing. Because as I think you will all have noted, there's not enough written down, there's not enough that provides really clear scaffolding for each of the conceptual elements. So I think there's a need to have more written resources out there on the conceptual elements. I think there's a need to work through really practical how-tos and there's a need to develop, and train really clear outcome metrics for each of the dimensions. And when I'm saying that, that just goes back to the whakapapa of kaupapa Māori frameworks that we've seen.

Sacha McMeeking (00:58:04):

So having deeper conceptual work that explains the dimensions of wellbeing is akin to what the metaphorical models did, having clearer guidance, what are the questions that go into the policy development process and how might you turn those questions into an upgraded regulatory impact statement? For example, that's building out the practise guidance elements of He Ara Waiora and then the outcome metrics part means that it is a clearer partner to the Living Standards Framework. Because those indicators will ideally capture the essence of those dimensions of wellbeing, which will contrast with the indicators in the living standards framework that are very much based on observable objective indicators.

Sacha McMeeking (00:59:13):

Which are important, and I know the statisticians hate all things subjective in their data collection processes, and that's fair, it's hard and it's laborious and there's lots of challenges with subjective elements. But I think potentially He Ara Waiora will lead us into nationally, how we might do more subjective experiences of wellbeing, to complement more of the observable elements of the conditions in which we all exist. And those three parts of work will hopefully, and to some extent, this is reliant on Treasury's generosity, happen at rapid speed to make it clearer for all of us.

Phil Evans (01:00:07):

Kia ora Sacha. Are there any more burning questions? I think a lot of these are probably for the Treasury to pick up and kind of provide advice around where to find resources or how to do certain things within government. If there's any burning last ones, pop them in the chat now, otherwise we'll let Sacha go back and do some tiakitanga, with respect to Mātangileia. Kāo. All right, well, I think we might actually bring it to a close then. So I really want to thank you for your time Sacha, and for the amazing job you always do in juggling rolls of whaea, with that of imparting your wisdom, which we at the Treasury have been beneficiary of, and obviously intend to keep this relationship going. I’m reminded of the [speaking in te reo Māori] whakataukī, “tā te tamariki, tāna mahi wāwāhi tahā”, it’s the job of children to kind of smash things up and challenge us and, keep us on our toes.

Phil Evans (01:01:32):

So yeah, huge mihi to you and to everyone who’s joined us here as well. I hope you found that really useful and maybe made a bit of a connection to this mahi. So yep, in answer to the questions, I’m your sort of contact point for He Ara Waiora in the Treasury, and maybe look forward to talking to many of you again soon. But please look out for the other upcoming events we have in the wellbeing seminar series. I think Diana mentioned, we have Romley from Australia, to give an indigenous perspective, coming up at some point in the future. We also have Nancy Hey, from the What Works for Wellbeing Centre in the UK. And Ilan Noy from Victoria University, on understanding and managing New Zealand’s risk profile. But again, huge mihi to you [speaking in te reo Māori] e te tuahine rāua ko tō pēpi. Ēnei rā ngā mihi… and to everyone, [speaking in te reo Māori] ki a koutou rā, ngā mihi mō tō tae mai nei. Me whakakapi ō tatou mahi o tēnei wā ki te karakia. Nā reira, piki te kaha, piki te ora, piki te wairua, mauri ora ē. Mā te wā whānau, thank you for your participation.